Due to the vast expansion of poultry industry challenges also increases. One of them is the control of microbial population which is done by excessive use of therapeutics antibiotics and AGP’s. The indiscriminate use of these products results in the emergence of antibiotic resistance. Apart from resistance it also leads to public health concern. Due to this EU has banned the use of AGP&rsqu...
Frederic good day and jefo got one called gallinat recop it is good for gut health its encapsulated acids and GARLIC and garlic got to be the healthest herb foe man kind and animals
I am using Selko pH in water targetting 3.8pH. However I am noticing that after over a year of continuous use, algae seem to form in the water lines clogging the water filters. Is it caused by the acid?
Pol Tarce it looks organic acids can become nutrients sources for algae or even bio films. The formulation we use in Canada is called Pro-Hydro and contain copper sulfate to fight algae. But, a good cleaning with the proper peroxide product between flocks should get rid of these.
@Pol Tarce Actually there is also Copper Sulphate in Selko pH, so it algae shouldn't form when the product is used in the right way. The quality of the water and the water system could play a role, also the use of medications and vitamins could have caused the clogging of your filters, but as said by mr. Paris when you use a proper peroxide product between the flocks, you should get rid of the clogging.
Dear Dr Fawad Khalil
Organic acids that are used in animal nutrition are most effective at low pH. For this reason, its action is more efficient in the region close to the proventricle and decreases considerably in the duodenum where the pH is above 5. This is because the organic acids used in nutrition have pKa below 5, consequently the mixtures of these acids will be buffered in the intestinal pH as soon as they pass through the pylorus. Non-encapsulated organic acids are absorbed quickly in the small intestine and the effect of acidification can be reduced from the small intestine of poultry. The encapsulation allows the slow and continuous release of organic acids throughout the intestinal tract, reducing the absorption rate and prolonging the acidification process after the small intestine of the poultry. The mixture of different organic acids provides a synergistic effect that no acid used individually can have. In order for short chain organic acids to reach the final third of the birds' intestines in significant concentrations, these acids must be protected or microencapsulated by fats. The formulation of a product based on organic acids will depend on the objective desired by the customer, as there are differences in efficiency between acids and not all are antimicrobials. As the main objective of using organic acids in birds, the reduction of contamination of E. coli, Salmonella and Campylobacter in the final portions of the intestine (cecum and colon), where the pH is close to 7, we must use short-chain organic acids encapsulated.
Regards,
Carlos Borges
C Borges Consultoria
am noticing the same when using organic acids
has anybody got a suggestion on which acid will not do that??
what about PWT from jones and hamilton
any experience out there on that product
Mike Stahl As I said, I have no algae problems using the formulation called Selko Pro Hydro in Canada, I’m pretty sure it is the same formulation as Selko PH in others country, but maybe a Trouw Nutrition representative could chime in. Because I have very alkaline water on my farm, I now mix a mineral acid with Selko to help lower PH first and use 1L/1000 L of Selko Pro Hydro to lower cost. I target the same 3.8PH.
As for PWT, I used it for 2 years, pretty efficient to lower the PH, but be aware of the very high load of sodium and sulfates coming with this product. If any of theses 2 minerals already in your water, you may end with very bad litter problems like I did when I used PWT. PWT is SODIUM BISULFATE... I had the worst litter in years using it in summer when water intake was high ...
I was told that Selko PH make is job on gut health and FCR starting at 1L/1000L and PH 4.2 and under. If you wanted to use a mineral only acid, I would use either phosphoric or Hydrochloric acid, the latter being the most economic to use.
Hope it can helps,
Fréderic
Frederic Paris Thanks for the reply, I think you would want to consult a poultry nutritionist when using pwt, cause of the extra sodium am also using selko pro hydro, thanks for the advice on the hydrochloric acid, will give it a try. thanks
If you use fat encapsulated once they often can start to dissolve very late and only support the last part of the destine. As fat digestion starts late. You have other stomach protected acids where the way of production make them only soluble in the destine. And which are proven in more than 100 tests in poultry and pigs. only 1 fat coated one showed good results in the registration in Europe to be approved in the acids. Only 2 Acids have reached the zootechnical registration in Europe which is nearly comparable with the results of antibiotic growth promoters. Even recent US Trials in gíps shows that they are on the same line. So fat encapsulation can work but there are already some solutions out there which show worldwide to be very good. not one in some regional trials.
Pol Tarce Mike Staahl , Don't overlook what you use for a water Sanitizer, Peroxide, chlorine, chlorine dioxide etc..? Organic Acid mixtures can be tricky and have heard numerous reports of peroxide sanitizer causing reactions with organic water acidifiers and plugging nipples/lines haven't heard anything with chlorine based products doing that, yet.
Also do a bacterial water swab of your water lines,(water samples can say they are clean, bacterial swabs are more accurate) find out what you're dealing with. If low levels of bacteria still make it past your sanitizer then 1) look at switching sanitizers, if that is possible, 2) if that is not an option then think about using a buffered inorganic acid versus an organic/inorganic mixture. The negatives of feeding those low levels of bacteria with organic acids far outweigh the supposedly gut health advantages.
Myself ,have had to do that, as I have a peroxide based sanitizer and low levels of Pseudomonas still enter my barn after being Sanitized. The organic Acidifiers made that worse. Lower PH in the 4-5 range can make that worse as well, depending on the bacteria present.
So important to know what bacteria your dealing with !
George Entz I agree with you, you should always know what the fight is. Chlorine can cause problems too if its dosage is too high. And depending in which area you are chlorine maybe already is present in your water lines. In some areas you have max of chlorine and so adding is not always possible. And chlorine and too much is bad especially for poultry and new research show as well for pigs. organic acid is not organic acid. often there is usage of lactic acid and acetic acid because of the taste and not all can formulate formic acid which is not strong smelling. and some of them are easier to buffer and transport regulations are low. so if you use the wring acid mix and to less than you can see that it feeds the bacteria. I think this is what happened with you. If you are using an acid in drinking water the pH have to be at least 4.5 or below. IN some areas farmers going now toward pH 2 and in poultry 3.8 as there nearly all bacterias cannot grow anymore and the start to pass away. Before the pH of 4.5 some stop only growing and some still can live and grow. So below 4.5 is always a nearly must if you use organic acid in drinking water. But in this discussion there is a lot of different things mixed. Encapsulate one in a drinking water cannot work to do the sanitizing. If they are used they will cough growth, as fat is a source of energy. So we need to separate this discussion if we are talking about drinking water and acid in the gut.
Christoph Hutter
We can separate it but in reality we need to look at the whole picture. Water is important but what about feed ,Management, environment, economics?
I agree with a 3.8 PH when starting chicks, but we have consistently seen better ADG when we increase the PH (in the water) as the birds get older. The best results on Farms are with a PH of 5.5- 6 at slaughter age. Why??
I believe it's the buffering capacity of starter/grower diets. Here in Canada we use Calcium Carbonate for calcium source, and when one watches the DEBv then they also use Sodium Bicarb, 2 of the worst buffering ingredients. It will waste up to 30% of the acidifying potential of our feeds (we choose to acidify with feeds versus water) , that is why we see a positive result by acidifying our water in starter/grower but not so much in Finisher phases.
I have been looking for a NDF product, does ADDCON have suppliers in Canada?
George Entz
We have not really a dealer in Canada
If you use NDF you can stopp using bicarbinate in the feed as NDF is a cl+ free source of Sodium too. and as the calcarbinate bufers mainly in the stomach there is not mcuh interaction in that as well.
Best regards Christoph
Forget it depends not only on the ph you are using above 4.5 pH you have growth and it is not easy to stopp it depends in acid in taste and tongue feeling of the brids you see this really nice in gigs and in turkey and as well in poultry we now have build new generations which is doing respect in that with new ingredients who will althoug be negative to algae growth and where we could show that we influence birds over the drinking water too.
Christoph Hutter,
Tried getting in contact with you via ADDCON website, left my email there but I suppose you never got it. So my email is entzgeorge20@gmail.com. Cheers.
I advise all your poultry guys to invest in a waterline camera if the lines are clean that’s all the birds need a clean water all this PH is a pile of BS
dan hofer although it’s not the silver bullet, I found that birds droppings are more firms and overall litter quality improved with lowering my water’s PH to 3.8-4, and using also some organic acids blends in the feed. It’s a trick more in my sleeve to lower antibiotics use in my flocks. I don’t use BMD or any group 3 preventively since 4 years now with the help of acids.
dan hofer - water line hygiene is but one benefit of water line acidification
pH control of the water can also improve protein digestibility in the crop. Most exogenous feed enzymes (phytase, protease, various carbohydrates) are more active at lower pH. That means they can do more pre-digestion of the crop contents if the bird is drinking acidified water.
It can also help with inhibiting pathogen spread within the barn. Several studies have shown that water acidification during feed withdrawal in preparation for shipping birds to slaughter, can reduce the spread of Salmonella within a flock as birds start eating litter and feather pecking in the absence of feed.
Christian Adu-Gyamfi - Not familiar with that specific brand/formula, but depending on how much of it you have, you may want to have it tested by the manufacturer to see if it is still within specification.
Barring that, If there is not a lot, then you may just want to use it, and check the pH of the water is achieving the intended level of acidification with a pH meter or test strips of some kind. If not, then bumping up the dose to account for potency loss may be a good idea.
Christian Adu-Gyamfi
Two months expired Selko pH is not a problem at all.
If color is still clear blue it will do its job.
You can still use it without any concern.
And indeed if you have any concern about quality of the product contact your local distributor and he can help you with sending a sample to check if specs are still within range.
dan hofer - Yeah, I've heard about that before.
Low concentrations of citric acid can serve as a food source for molds and bacteria in the water lines. the concentration needs to be high enough to be lethal. Below that concentration it can cause more problems than it solves.
Try bumping up the dose of citric acid, or switching to a non-citric acid based line treatment. either shorter chain organic acids (formic, propionic, etc.) or an inorganic acid (phosphoric) based product.
dan hofer: I have two comments:
1. Citric acid helps remove buildup scale from water lines after removing slime but should not be used as a cleaner.
2. water systems must be cleaned appropriately between flocks. Otherwise, if yeasts and fungi are present in the water line during the flock, water additive products such as acids and performance enhancers will create favorable conditions for their growth, resulting in a gooey slime that will clog drinkers and generally create disaster in water systems.
@M.C. Fernando R. Feuchter A. - Acetic acid (active ingredient in vinegar) can also be metabolized by some microbiota, but to a lesser extent (in my experience) than citric acid.
One issue that can come up is the rather low acetic acid concentration in vinegar (generally 4 to 6%). Even if you are going to be further diluting the vinegar in drinking water, there is still the cost associated with transporting the water that makes up >90% of the product. You also need to have that much more space allocated for your water treatment set up to allow for the higher volume of product. (hand trucks for moving large 55 gallon drums vs small gallon sized bottles, for example)
From a cost and space perspective, I expect that acetic acid would be better than vinegar, but it will come with more involved worker safety concerns due to the increased potency. It just becomes a matter of priorities.
@M.C. Fernando R. Feuchter A. Vinegar is a very weak acid and a great source of carbon for certain molds, yeasts, and fungi to use as a carbon source for food and growth. My question would be, what is the reason for using it when flushing lines? If it is to lower the pH so the chlorine is more effective, I would be surprised if it is actually lowering the pH, and if they are using it to descale the water lines, it will never be strong enough to do that properly (if there is a substantial amount of buildup minerals in the line).
Use stabilized Chlorine Dioxide.
It clears the algae from the pipeline and removes the protein deposits which are not harmful but block the nipple. Kills all the organisms and even you can spray on the birds to remove the biological load on the body of the birds.
Good results.
Citric acid has the lowest power against a lot of bacteria.
It is even used to feed them in fermentation units.
There is much more powerful once.
In the body Citric acid has functions and not one of them is described as killing bacterias.
The mode of action is fully different.
Citric acid is often used as it is the easiest to transport and often much cheaper than a lot of other acids and it easy to solve in water.
dan hofer - Hutter is correct that it has many other applications, and its popularity is largely due to ease of handing/shipping. However, it CAN be effective at a high enough dose rate. It can both descale (as he states) and kill bacteria in the lines. That said, there are better, stronger acids for hygiene available.
dan hofer Sorry if you read this but only do a Trial and dose it on normal level of 1kg/1000l and you will see grwoth. If you do high level everything kills....
All Vitamin can kill bacteria on high levels and some are as well frarmers and animals.
So I am only saying there is much more efficent ways and as well to kill algae, as even high levels of Citric will not do anything on them.
Hi Gentlemen, would be great to discuss the microbiota impact of the OAs usage.
It seems the microbiota balance has been an issue of others AGPs alternatives but not that much whem talking about AO.
Both fermentative patterns in the monogastrics tract seens to be afected, sometimes promoting better performance results sometimes not.
Unfortunatelly the poor results make people more aware than the better performance.
Cordially,
Luis Fernando Vergamini Luna.
Fermentative effects are driven more by the diet than the acid.
Unprotected acids are absorbed or metabolized vaguely early in the foregut. Effects on the hind gut are indirect, in that they acid affects the foregut, and those effects have a carryover effects on the hind gut - where fermentation occurs. By the cecum or colon, all of the acid added to feed or water is already gone from the gut, or transformed into different compounds.
For protected acids there are some ability to act directly on the hind-gut, but then the foregut and feed/water effects are lost.
dan hofer gut acidification really only happens in the crop/proventriculous. Beyond that point he bird will buffer the digests with pancreatic secretions, regardless of which acid is used. The exception being the use of protected/encapsulated acids, which don’t acidify the foregut, and only the hind gut to the extent they are released from their protection/encapsulation technology.
In essence you have to choose where you want you effect, waterline and foregut, OR hind gut. For hind gut acidification, water is the wrong route of administration. Better to achieve that through acids added to the feed. That is because the technology that controls release usually makes it poorly soluble in water.