Organic Acids - A Review
Thank you, sir Akram, for your point can you send me some published data to support your argument because according to my limited knowledge organic acids does work as mold inhibitors.
Thanks.
my email id is
dr.usama391@gmail.com
Thank you, Olivier, for your comment. about your question adaptation is negligible according to my knowledge.
Pka value of formic acid is a big question on its release in later part of the intestine. And to what extent it reduces pH in different parts of GIT? Also what kind of substances were used before AGP era? Organic acids?
Also, think of other organic acids... and other substances.. having additive effects with organic acids.
Hi all,
Pka value on formic is to my knowledge 3,75
Why it should not be known.
If you feed formic acid pure nearly nothing will arrive in the latter part of the destine.
The ph value is not the big difference in the action in the destine you will come down 0.3 - 0.5 ph and it helps more for better secretion of destine juices.
Resistance is always a discussion but against the action of an acid it is not easy to be resistant.
The pKa of formic acid is known (3.75 as indicated by someone else). As for how this affects dissociation, that depends on the pH of the surrounding environment. The degree of association/disassociation between the cation and anion is dependent on the pH of the solution.
Formic acid added to feed with a pH of 6-7 will completely disassociate. However, once that acidified feed is consumed and further acidified by the HCl in the proventriculous of the bird, it will reassociate by taking up H+ ions released by the HCl produced by the birds. This is because the association/disassociation of acids is reversible.
Generally the pH of the proventriculous has a pH between 2 to 4, meaning that formic acid will be between 2 and 100% disassociated, depending on the specific pH of the microenvironment within the proventriculous. Later on, when the digesta flows into the more alkaline intestine, the dissociation degree will be 100% (any pH at 3.8 or above). However, this is the average pH of the digesta. Within the gut there are acidic microenvironments along the brush boarder membrane that are essential to proper function of many nutrient transporters (any based on an inwardly directed proton gradient), so even in the ostensibly neutral pH intestine, there exist micro environments where some formate would be able to reassociate with H+ and regenerate formic acid from formate.
Faisal Sajjad
All organic acids are different. However, in terms of the GIT of the gut, acetic acid (glacial simply implies pure acid) does not really stand out.
Acetic acid is one of the more dense organic acids, such that on an equal weight basis pure acetic acid delivers comparable acidification potential to roughly 75% formic acid in high pH feeds where full, or near full dissociation can be expected.
However, the higher pKa means acetic acid will not be a viable solution if you are looking to achieve water acidification to a pH much below 4.5. For comparison, at a pH of 4.0 only about 3% of the acetic acid will be in the dissociated state, meaning unreasonably high concentrations would be needed. This is compared with roughly 75% dissociation of the formic at the same pH.
There is also plenty of data showing that acetic acid is not as potent, even on an equimolar basis against bacteria in vitro. This is likely due to the interaction between particle size and membrane diffusion rate of the undissociated acids. The smaller formic appears to more efficiently move across the cell membrane, thus more rapidly achieving strong acidification of the cytosol.
On top in acetic acid, you often can see that bacterias can grow.
This is the same for Lactic acid if it is diluted some of this molecules can be used as energy to some bacteria or fungus or even Algae
We see more and more of this growth in Europe in systems where it is used for a long term.
If you have a good Formic product you will not see it.
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Christoph Hutter This is a good point!
Some of the organic acids can be used as an energy source at lower concentrations, or when used in isolation. This difference can even be seen at the same pH with some acids resulting in blooms and others not. It depends on the microorganisms having the molecular pathway to metabolize the acid. As you say, this is not seen for formic acids. And many blends based on other acids will have formic acid in the mix to try and prevent this known hazard.
Dear Joshua,
Yes, this is what I see in my daily work and more often.
And if you start with acid, be aware that you remove the first water from the pipes as it will be a really dirty game. If you do acids for the first time, it doesn't matter which one you are using.
All short chain organic acids used in animal nutrition have pKa between 3.8 to 5.0 and, if not protected with vegetable fat, do not pass the duodenum at significant concentrations as they will be absorbed and used as energy sources by different routes metabolic.
Some organic acids such as formic, sorbic and benzoic have a higher efficiency than others in controlling gram-negative bacteria such as Salmonella and E. coli. However, others such as acetic acid are not indicated, because in several publications they present a growth of microorganisms, mainly salmonella.
Carlos Augusto Borges, it's not only vegetable protection that could pass through the duodenum, the butyrins (acids+glycerol) are fully capable of doing this path in higher concentrations.
How to measure the acid value of Acidifier combination having acetic, formic, fumeric acid, etc.?
Ranganathan - They are defined this way for the same reason that organic chemistry is different from inorganic chemistry. The presence of carbon.
Organic Acids are acids that contain carbon. For example the chemical formula for formic acid, the simplest organic acid, is HCOOH. Inorganic acids lack carbon (hydrochloric acid is HCl, for example).
This is different from the marketing term "Organic", which means in compliance with some sort of process certification like USDA Organic.
Ranganathan
That can be a problem. Not all countries have an official process certification for “Organic” or other marketing terms, and thus it is up to the consumer themselves to figure out if the label mans anything consistently, which can be impossible.
We have come to know the difference between organic acid and inorganic acid, thanks for your highlight. What of organic chemistry and inorganic chemistry and the relationship that exist between the two?
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Frederic Paris Dear Frederic, you are right but in the case of these acids, there will not much reach the destine. As Ammonium will not help to get over the stomach. Not many acids can go till the destine. In the drinking water, most acids are only used for pushing the pH down. But the new generation can reach the destine and influence it directly. But you need different raw material and always access over drinking water is limited. But as well overfeed, most acids will not reach the destine as they are consumed int he stomach. Formi, for example, is a powder form which will be active in the destine of the animal kinds and is protected during stomach transport. If you use fat coated once you will end up in the big destine. For drinking water chloride and HCL may be cheaper but HCL is very dangerous to use and chlorine is in more and more countries not only seen as positive to much can cause problems as well in birds and in pigs. Best Regards, Christoph
Dear Frederic
I will try to answer your questions.
Firstly, the objective of using organic acids in water is to lower the pH of the water itself, as most pathogenic bacteria do not grow in environments with pH <4.0.
Ammonia is used in these products precisely to buffer the pH of the water around 4.0, because if the pH drops too much, the birds can decrease the consumption of water and feed.
Organic acids such as formic and acetic are weak acids, and do not have the capacity to lower the pH in the birds' TGI even if they are used via feed. Via water, they would only be able to lower the pH of the crop, mainly in the pre-slaughter period in order to reduce contamination of the carcass.
The acid can only acidify when it loses H, that is, when it dissociates. Therefore, the organic acids added to the water will dissociate in the water itself in order to lower the pH to the desired point.
Another important comment about pka is that all short chain organic acids used in poultry and pigs have their pka between 3.0 and 5.0 and will always dissociate until the initial third of the TGI which has a pH close to these values.
As for the questioning of chlorine in water, we must remember that it loses its effect whenever the water contains organic matter (biofilm) and this does not occur with organic acids.
If the intention is to control the growth of pathogenic bacteria, seeking the balance of the intestinal microflora I advise using a product based on organic acids protected with vegetable fat so that they can be released slowly and only in the final third of the intestine where the pathogenic bacteria are found.
I don't know whether to answer all your questions.
Carlos Augusto Borges thanks for your great explanations. If I get it right, if ammonia is used in OA liquid mix, it is mainly as a “protector” to avoid the water PH to drop too much and reach the point of 3.5, where birds would back off water?
If acid dissociates in water to lower it PH, then why not use HCL/phosphoric acid products to make it at way lower cost and attain the same crop/upper GIT acidification?
For the lower GIT, I use encapsulated butyric acid product in the feed to put MCFA in the lower gut.
What I question myself is that, with very alkaline water, it takes the maximum dosage of 2l/1000 l of buffered organic acids to take down the PH 3.8. This is costly, and if it can be made by a mineral acid like HCL cheaper, why not?
Dear Frederic
At first, yes, all acids or products that lower the pH of the water could be used. However, we must remember that HCl and H3PO4 are inorganic and strong and can damage your piping and compromise the water supply for birds.
In Brazil, some producers use acetic acid (vinegar) to clean the water box and piping, but do not use it often to prevent equipment corrosion.
Phosphoric acid (H3PO4) for having a low pKa is used in some products via water, but the problem is that we know the exact amount that we must use to be able to lower the pH of the water to around 4.0.
Butyric acid is an excellent product, but it is not the most efficient acid to inhibit the growth of pathogenic bacteria in animals' GIT.
The combination of different encapsulated organic acids (blends) provides a synergistic effect that no acid used individually can have. These mixtures of organic acids allow lower doses of acids to be used when compared to the use of individual acids.
All of them Acids In water are nothing but garbage all they do is grow junk in water lines.
have u ever heard of gallinat Plus? (JEFO) makes it. It works very good on keeping the guts healthy been using it for two years quit using bmd repaced it with gallinat and have not looked back but as far as acids in water didn't work for our farm. Good luck.
dan hofer I have heard of Jefo’s Gallinat + as I farm 20 km from Jefo head office in St-Hyacinthe Quebec, Canada. I’m not using it at the moment, but I use a Trouw Nutrition product called Elarom in Canada, and very satisfied. I think it works on the same concept as Gallinat and I have too removed BMD from my feeding program. I’m mid flock with a test without OA it n water, I’ll have a look at the results.
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